The Suburban Women Problem: Rachel Vindman
JULY 7, 2022
“These are eligible voters who historically vote in very high numbers.“
Rachel Vindman is the host of the Suburban Women Problem podcast and wife of retired Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. We discuss the disenchantment of suburban women with our politics–who historically vote in very high numbers, our personal responsibility to use our voices for change, and the war in Ukraine.
One of the fastest ways to mitigate domestic issues like inflation and high gas prices is to help Ukraine defeat Russia. This would ease pressure on the world wide economy. Policy makers can and should listen to the priorities of their constituents and legislate accordingly. Being a resource to your network of family and friends to demystify things that they’ve seen in the news is an effective form of activism.
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Credits:
Host: Mila Atmos
Guest: Rachel Vindman
Executive Producer: Mila Atmos
Producers: Zack Travis and Sara Burningham
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Rachel Vindman Transcript
Mila Atmos: [00:00:00] Thanks to Avast for supporting Future Hindsight. With Avast One, you can confidently take control of your online world by helping you stay safe from viruses, phishing attacks, ransomware hacking attempts, and other cybercrimes. Learn more about Avast One at Avast.com.
Mila Atmos: [00:00:17] Before we get to the episode, I'd like to share a resource to take action in the wake of the June 24th Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe versus Wade. Go to podvoices.help to learn more. Speak up, take care, and spread the word.
Mila Atmos: [00:00:37] Welcome to Future Hindsight, a podcast that takes big ideas about civic life and democracy and turns them into action items for you and me. I'm Mila Atmos. May we live in less interesting times. This is where we are: A global pandemic. The rise of autocrats. The erosion of democracy. Big lies. Climate stress. Mass shootings. And a very hot war in Ukraine. It can feel overwhelming and it can also feel like "where has normal gone? Is it ever coming back?" Today's guest has experienced a really intense version of this. Rachel Vindman's husband, Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, was thrust into the spotlight when he blew the whistle on then-President Trump's "perfect call" with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine. Rachel thought she'd be a card carrying member of the GOP forever until President Trump called her husband a traitor. Today, she's a co-host of the Suburban Women Problem Podcast and an outspoken critic of Trumpist Republicans. Rachel, welcome to Future Hindsight. Thank you for joining us.
Rachel Vindman: [00:01:54] Thank you for having me, Mila. This is a privilege.
Mila Atmos: [00:01:57] So I thought we'd start with the moment that everything changed for you. Was it a moment? What do you think of as the kind of inflection point on your journey to being an activist?
Rachel Vindman: [00:02:09] Certainly I had an awakening about who this Republican Party is, and I think that started with the Kavanaugh hearings and the way Christine Blasey Ford, Dr. Ford, was treated. And then in terms of using my voice, there was a moment. It was in 2020, and my husband told me that a journalist with whom he had
done a story, Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic, had written that Donald Trump at one point, President Trump, had called members of the military suckers and losers. And that piece, the result of it was he received a lot of death threats and his family had to move away from their home. And we were maybe ten months into our public journey. And I just was like, that's enough. You know, we have got to speak out. What happened to us can happen to anyone and we have to raise the alarm because we were just so normal. You know, when I had that moment, I was driving to pick up my dog from doggie daycare, a very suburban thing to do, and it was like, we're just very normal people and this is how it happens, right? This is how autocrats come to power slowly. It's not the big moment. It's not like the Reichstag moment. It's the slow things that build up to that, that allow that moment to happen. So that's when I was like, We've got to do something. And our first step was making a political ad, which was a difficult thing to do. But, you know, step by step, and you realize that your voice resonates with people and that when you put it in personal terms and you share the personal story, as hard as that is to do, and I understand why people don't want to do, but that's what resonates with people, because people can identify with the personal nature of it.
Mila Atmos: [00:04:08] Right. Tell us a little bit about your first political ad. What was it like? What did you say and what was important about that ad?
Rachel Vindman: [00:04:17] Well, first off, can I say, because I haven't written a book, but my husband has, so I'm just going to toot my own horn a little bit. I was apparently very good at it and my husband was extremely bad at it. There was a very funny comment after he appeared on Curb Your Enthusiasm and someone said, Well, I thought he was lying during the impeachment, but then I saw him on Curb Your Enthusiasm and he's such a bad actor that he must have been telling the truth. And that's pretty much how the political ad went. So he had a lot of lines and they essentially cut it out because he couldn't deliver it in a natural way. But I guess I have enough drama in me that I could. So I just you know, I told the story. There was footage of our family kind of taking a walk.
Rachel Vindman: [00:04:59] There's one call no military spouse ever wants to get. And for me, that call came in October 2004 when I heard a voice telling me Alex had been injured by a roadside bomb.
Ret. Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman: [00:05:12] The last time you saw me was here. "Dad, do not worry. I will be fine for telling the truth."
Rachel Vindman: [00:05:19] The first time I felt threatened was just after Alex's testimony.
Kayleigh McEnany: [00:05:23] With Colonel Vindman. I'm not going to focus or comment on a former junior employee.
Donald Trump: [00:05:28] Well, I'm not happy with it. Well, you'll see. I mean, we'll see what happens.
Rachel Vindman: [00:05:32] And I said, the most powerful man in the world came after us.
Rachel Vindman: [00:05:36] The most powerful man in the world came after our family. But what happened to us can happen to anyone. We receive thousands of letters of support. America is so much better than Donald Trump. But he can cost this nation so much more with four more years.
Ret. Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman: [00:05:51] This is America. This is the country I have served and defended. Here, right matters.
Voiceover: [00:05:58] Vote Vets and the Lincoln Project are responsible for the content of this advertising.
Rachel Vindman: [00:06:01] And all because my husband spoke the truth in the United States of America where that should be celebrated. But it wasn't. And our entire life was changed. So I just kind of told our story and I reinforced that we weren't just any regular family. We were a military regular family. And we, you know, had moved 14 times in about 14 or 15 years. I dedicated everything. I don't have a professional career because I followed my husband around. And it's kind of hard when you live in all these random places and only for a very short time to establish that. So we were true believers in all of it. And for better or worse, or maybe because of that, that's why we were attacked. I mean, it's not the only reason, but I wanted to tell the story and show who we are and
our ordinariness of ordinary people and the nature of who the Trump administration is, was.
Mila Atmos: [00:07:02] Well, I think it's so powerful what you're saying, that it could happen to anyone and that we are kidding ourselves, right, if we think it won't affect us. And so that brings me to the way that you're currently using your voice. Let's talk about your podcast and we'll start with the title. What is the suburban women problem?
Rachel Vindman: [00:07:22] Well, first of all, we met when you were a guest on our show and one of my favorite everyday women that we have spoken to, because I guess we have similar stories and just, you know, trying to demystify things and talk about things. And that's what we do. But the suburban women problem is something that before the 2018 midterms, it was predicted that the Republicans would take a huge hit. And Lindsey Graham famously said, "we have a suburban women problem." I would argue that both parties have a suburban women problem because everyone wants to tell women what their problems are and how they can fix them. I know what my problems are and I have a pretty good idea how to fix them. Most of the time what I need is policymakers and elected officials to listen to us about how we want our problems to be solved. They don't have to talk at us, but listen to us. And that's why there's a problem, I think, because people do too much telling us how to fix it. But on our podcast, we do a lot of... You know, at this point our news sources are so siloed and the only way you could really break in and get new information to a lot of people is through relational organizing.
Rachel Vindman: [00:08:41] So that's something that we we don't actually identify that on the podcast, but that's what we're promoting because we talk about... Every week, you know, we talk about current issues. We have an everyday guest every day woman guest like you were, who is someone who is making a difference, who's using their voice to make a difference in a, you know, an ordinary way. I'm just saying, they don't have maybe a giant platform or they didn't. But, you know, they're using what they have. So a very relatable thing. And then we have a guest who's a little bit more well known, you know, an expert on a topic to discuss a topic with us, and I hope demystify a lot of these things like trans kids in school, don't say gay bills, comprehensive sex education, the pay gap for women, how women in the care economy, how that's affected us. So many of these things. And I hope that people learn from that and then go and tell the
their friends, their family, the people in their neighborhood, the other moms at the bus stop, and really use that to educate people, you know, in a relational way, because I think that's the best way to get through on some of these very difficult, polarizing subjects.
Mila Atmos: [00:09:51] First of all, thank you for the shout out for being on your show and inviting me on. I love what you're saying here about relational organizing. I want to talk about suburban women sort of like in the way that they are stereotyped. Right. Like it feels as though that label can be very reductive. And by that I mean, you know, it codes white, affluent, a little NIMBY-ish. And I know you're kind of winking at that with your title. So tell me about the ways that we can view this label more expansively. Like how do you think of this group, you know, maximally?
Rachel Vindman: [00:10:27] Well. Again, this kind of speaks to the problem of reaching suburban women voters, because more women of color live in suburbs than live in urban areas. So not understanding the group is a bit of the problem. If you don't understand who the group is, makes it exponentially more difficult to reach, obviously. So how I think about this group of suburban women maximally is the power of really women's voices. It's not a monolith, but we have a lot of connection points, I think, that bring us together. And particularly after the pandemic, a lot more women in suburban areas have lost their jobs, have had to leave the workforce and are having difficulty reentering. And this is a group that historically has has worked outside the home more. We just know this demographically. So this has like further separated suburban women. And I think this is as we as we see with some of the, you know, the hot button issues of the day of the Democrats not being able to get a lot of bills passed that that got them a lot of votes because it wasn't just a backlash against Donald Trump. It was like the handling of the pandemic. But the handling of the pandemic involved our children and our, their education. It involved, again, people leaving the workforce, quality childcare for our children. So these issues have disproportionately affected suburban women and we still don't have a lot of. Resolution on them. And now we're moving into inflation, food prices, gas prices and how that is affecting this group. So I do think they need to be listened to, but I think mostly they need to be understood about who they are in order to solve the issues that are most important to them and pass meaningful legislation and policies that will help this group of very important voters. Voters who vote. I mean, these
are eligible voters who historically vote in very high numbers. And that's very important, especially going into the midterms.
Mila Atmos: [00:12:36] Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that's the... This is the lost opportunity. I feel like in so many ways that we should be, you know, issue oriented as opposed to painting the idea of suburban women into one stereotype. Like you said, there are many women of color and a lot of them are working moms. And the issues that affect them directly are jobs, child care, inflation, which is, of course, worldwide. And I think sometimes I feel like the press is really, you know, doing us a disservice by not making clear that everybody in the world is suffering from inflation, in part because of covid, in part because of the war in Ukraine. And to make it sound like it's a domestic problem.
Rachel Vindman: [00:13:18] I mean, it is a domestic problem. Mila Atmos: [00:13:19] Yes, it is. In addition.
Rachel Vindman: [00:13:20] Yes. No. Right. Yeah. I mean, but I you know, I met you in person several weeks ago at the PEN America Gala in New York City. And that day when I was in New York, I recorded a podcast with Sarah Longwell called The Focus Group, and they spoke with eight suburban women in battleground states who voted for Trump in 2016 and Biden in 2020. It was really fascinating and heartening. I hope that a lot of women feel the way these these women did, but they were saying things that it shocked me because in terms of inflation, they're like, "we've had inflation before. This isn't President Biden's fault." And I thought, oh, I'm glad that you know this. I mean, how do you know this? I wanted to go through and ask them more questions because it doesn't seem like a lot of people have gotten that message. It certainly doesn't seem like they also identify that it's happening all over the world. And I thought where, where are you getting this information? Because it doesn't seem like everyone has it. So I was kind of curious about that. Unfortunately, I was only watching the the clip. But another thing I noticed with the women that I think is really important in the work that both of us do is we are oftentimes women of me, of a certain age, very close to 50.
Rachel Vindman: [00:14:38] It was raised to not discuss certain topics in public. And one of the things I thought was interesting is whenever they ask them what the most important topics to them were or issues to them, everyone said health care and the
economy slash inflation. When abortion was brought up, and this was very close to the leaking of the Roe memo, when that was brought up, they all said, oh, "yes, that's very important to me also." But no one wanted to bring it up first. And that's why we have to keep talking about it, because it's a deeply personal issue. Once it was brought up, the floodgates were opened. They wouldn't stop talking about it in a good way. But it's important that we continue to discuss issues so that people feel free to talk about and people feel free to make them voting issues as well. And I just think that's that's a really important part of what we do is to stress and to talk about those hard topics that other people are unwilling to maybe bring up or admit that that's an important issue to them.
Mila Atmos: [00:15:41] Yeah, I really admire that about your show that you just, you know, you talk about the issues in a way, like you said, that people are often reluctant to, at home or, you know, even like, let's say in workplaces, wherever they are.
Rachel Vindman: [00:15:53] Yeah.
Mila Atmos: [00:15:54] This is not an open topic. In fact, when I saw you in person, we talked about the leaking of the memo and we spoke to a complete stranger who ended up joining our conversation about abortion. And I was like, Oh, wow, if you're just willing to open up and talk about it, it's, you know, people people will people are willing to to say it. And I'll just share the story here. She was older and she told us that she, for whatever reason, had to have an abortion 45 years ago. And she mentioned to us that only now can she speak about it without being deeply ashamed. And and I thought that was so powerful that she shared that with us, even though we don't know her.
Rachel Vindman: [00:16:34] You know, we both have met her maybe a minute prior. I'm tearing up just thinking about it because her bravery, it stuck with me. It's something that I thought about so many times. She was married, she had children, which is a high number of women who have abortions or women who are already married and already have children, which flies in the face of everything that the right wants to tell you. And and growing up, I was... You know, especially in Oklahoma, was told how the evils of abortion and certainly I know abortion like I mean, I don't think it should be used as birth control. I don't think it's like a great idea to go out and, you know, for everyone to get abortions. But I think it's a personal choice and the government should not be part of that choice. And this woman sharing her story was so meaningful to me. And I thought if
she can share that at her age, then I can certainly talk about it. If it makes me a little bit uncomfortable. If I haven't really dealt with all my feelings about abortion, I can still find a way to do it if people can share their personal stories. And again, those personal stories sharing that changes people's mind because it gives them permission to put themselves in someone's shoes and to think a little bit more on a personal level, not in theoretical terms.
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Mila Atmos: [00:19:36] I want to tell you about another podcast I think you'll enjoy. It's called When the People Decide. It's a show about ballot initiatives, the people who organize them, and how they've shaped American politics. Conversations about democracy in the U.S. typically focus on political parties and candidates. But there's a whole other world of everyday people who are taking issues they care about directly to their fellow voters using ballot initiatives. Join host Jenna Spinelle to hear about citizen led campaigns on political reform, civil rights issues, criminal justice, and more. When the People Decide is supported by the McCourtney Institute for Democracy at Penn
State and produced by LWC Studios. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. And now let's return to our conversation with Rachel Vindman.
Mila Atmos: [00:20:27] You have a personal story, too. I heard you talk about that on your show. What happened?
Rachel Vindman: [00:20:33] Well, Alex and I, we had a long infertility journey, I guess. But I had many miscarriages. My first miscarriage was on Mother's Day, a couple of months after we got married. And I had another one, I guess a few months later. And then about a year, a year later, I was pregnant. We lived in Germany at the time, and I was seeing a fertility doctor already. And so they were monitoring the early part of my pregnancy really closely and I knew I was having a miscarriage. So I had gone to an appointment just to make sure that the miscarriage was happening naturally. And I was in a lot of pain and my doctor was very concerned. And about 30 minutes after arriving at his office, I was in surgery and I had an ectopic pregnancy that was close to rupturing. And when I look at some of these restrictive abortion laws, trigger laws that will go on the books as soon as Roe is repealed. And also the states that want to pass extremely restrictive laws. Maybe they have a cut out for ectopic pregnancy, but will anyone be willing to perform that surgery? Because until you see the ectopic pregnancy, it's too small. Even with diagnostic tools, without looking internally, you cannot truly know that it's an ectopic pregnancy. It's just. I mean, it's not a true diagnosis until you, you see it through surgery. So had I been in one of those states that day, I could have lost my life.
Rachel Vindman: [00:21:58] Because if I wasn't able to have that surgery, I wouldn't have had time to travel to another state where perhaps it was legal to have surgery. And that's certainly way too heavy on me in a personal way. And I think it just, it's such a great example that many of the people who are making these laws. They don't care about reality. They don't care about the medical reality of the situation. Then they don't care to learn. There was a state legislator in Oklahoma who went to West Point. He's presumably an educated person and the US taxpayers pay for his education. He referred to an ectopic pregnancy as a child living out the beginning days of its life. You know, as someone who has gone through fertility treatments and has longed to see a heartbeat on the screen at six weeks, I understand how powerful that can be. I also know that that heartbeat, I mean, it's definitely an air quote. And again, to me, someone
who wanted to see it, it was very special. But I didn't view it as a child living out the beginning stages of its life. And that was after cardiac activity. This is way before cardiac activity. I mean, it's just preposterous. Of course, if you say it like that, you're painting a picture and people will agree with you.
Rachel Vindman: [00:23:23] But it's just absolutely not true. It's not medically true. And it's misinformation. It's intentionally misleading people to get them to go along with these arcane laws that they want to pass. And they are not found in reality. But I'll tell you, the problem is they think it's not going to happen to them. They think it's not going to be their wives, daughters, loved ones, who are going to be limited by these laws. And they also think their children will never be gay. I mean, there was a law passed in Ohio recently. They have had four or five trans children since 2014. There's currently one child in the state of Ohio that identifies as trans and has tried to get permission to compete at the, in state high school athletics. And they passed a law for external and internal examinations, medical examinations, to determine a child's gender if it is questioned by someone. So obviously these people don't think that their child's gender will be questioned. But a birth certificate isn't good enough. They will be subjected, if it's questioned, to an examination. And the arrogance, the hubris of thinking that that will not be weaponized against many children is ridiculous. But I guess, I mean, all we can assume is that they simply do not care. The innocent victims of these laws is not important to them. It's just about scoring political points.
Mila Atmos: [00:24:56] Right. Right. That goes back to your point about really not listening to the constituents and serving the constituents, but having their own agenda that they're pursuing.
Rachel Vindman: [00:25:03] Yeah, absolutely.
Mila Atmos: [00:25:04] Yeah.
Rachel Vindman: [00:25:05] I mean, I thought Matthew McConaughey said it really well when he spoke at the White House about gun control. But we can't be so focused on re- election that we're not doing the right thing now.
Matthew McConaughey: [00:25:16] We can't truly be leaders if we're only living for re- election. Let's be knowledgeable and wise and act on what we truly believe. Again, we've got to look in the mirror. Lead with humility, and acknowledge the values that are inherent to, but also above politics.
Rachel Vindman: [00:25:37] And I guess, I mean, I can't get that out of my head. It seems that there's so many who simply do not care about doing the right thing. And I think we'll do it in two years or we'll do it whenever we get elected next time or... They're, they're... Now is the time. I mean, how many times do we as moms, as people, like you need to do it now. You're not going to do it later. You're not going to... You must do it now.
Mila Atmos: [00:25:59] Put your shoes on. We're leaving.
Rachel Vindman: [00:26:01] Yeah, yeah, I know. I mean, now! Like, no, we're not going to wait until later. Later is never happens the time to do something. Now is the right time.
Mila Atmos: [00:26:10] Right. Right. Well, I think it's incredible to hear that GOP lawmakers are pushing for ever more restrictive laws, talking about life beginning at conception, like you mentioned. Right. Some talking about it happening even before conception, you know, threatening access to birth control and life saving reproductive care and even criminalizing women who have miscarriages like we... It's totally shocking and it's happening and it's affecting all of us. So do you think that GOP women, suburban women, are alarmed by this extremism?
Rachel Vindman: [00:26:43] I know they are. I know they are, because they've reached out to me. And not only to me, but I have some really good friends in more GOP populated areas. Texas, for instance, a really good friend of mine, she is a nurse. She as an evangelical, a member of a Southern Baptist church. And after the tragedy at the school in Texas, she had a friend of hers, many friends reached out to her, but one of them said, "I hate Ted Cruz and you're the only person I can tell." But you know what? She can vote against him and he's not up for re-election for a long time. But what they do in the voting booth is only between them and that ballot. So they might never tell
anyone. But the more we keep talking about it, the more people we reach. And, you know, our friend said, "I can't wait to vote for Beto O'Rourke in November."
Mila Atmos: [00:27:41] Yeah.
Rachel Vindman: [00:27:42] So, I mean, they might never give a dime. They might not do any canvassing. But I think there's going to be what I'm seeing and it's anecdotal in a way, but my husband's a lot more involved politically. He's a senior adviser to a super PAC. And you have to be mercenary at some point with some of this. And they're like, oh, that race. It's not winnable. It's not winnable. But a lot of races that were not winnable a few months ago are now a lot closer than they think and people are getting involved. So that tells me there has been a shift, but we've got to keep talking about it and we've got to keep offering real solutions. It can't be bridges because people just don't really care about bridges. um. I like Secretary Buttigieg. This is not a slam against him. But do the bridges. Do the things. But let's not talk about those things. We want those things. I mean, everyone wants bridges. I mean, I want a nice HVAC system for my house, but I'm not going to talk about it. I mean, I just want it to work. So but we have to talk about the issues that are affecting people when they're not done right now that that are really the problem. And if we do that and we do that successfully, I think we're going to see some surprises in November.
Mila Atmos: [00:28:52] Yeah, I agree. Well, speaking of Beto O'Rourke, I think one of the things to remember is that gun safety legislation at the state level -- and in New York state, Governor Hochul just signed ten pieces of legislation, including raising the age from 18 to 21 to buy semiautomatic weapons -- and so if Texas has a new governor, then they can pass legislation there to prevent the kind of death that they've just been seeing at Uvalde. But I want to dig into something we talked about at the top about your stepping into activism. And in light of all the stuff we've just talked about, do you think that you left the party or did the party leave you?
Rachel Vindman: [00:29:30] I think both. I have been thinking about this a lot and trying to write about it just kind of my own my own thoughts, especially leading up to the midterms and to 2024, because I'd like to help a lot of people that I think are -- a lot of women, especially, that are in this position -- and first, I have to kind of examine my thoughts. But in many ways I do think the party left me. But I also think that at that point,
what 44, 45 years of experience in my experiences were different than what I was taught from a young age. And then, you know, when I realized it's a lot easier to demonize people and to other people if you never meet the other people. But once you meet them and you see they're more like you than not like you and they want the same things in life, then it's a lot more difficult to do that. So I think my experience of being out in the world and. "Oh, guess what? Like socialism. There are a lot of elements of socialism in Western European society. When I lived there, when I had a lot of friends from there I saw that it's actually quite functional." I mean, it's not totally functional and neither is our system. So you have to be able to go in with eyes wide open, but it doesn't mean that it's completely good or completely bad. I think we could use a mix of some of the elements of health care, of child care, early childhood care, of some of these ideas of of taking care of new mothers like they do in Germany and the Netherlands, of a nurse to come visit and say, "hey, how are you doing? How how is it? You know, can I just hold your baby for a minute, maybe change a couple of diapers and be here?" And these are services that are offered. So those kind of experiences changed my views, my long held views on a lot of things. And so I probably changed as well. But let's be honest, I mean, this current Republican Party is absolutely nothing like the Republican Party that I was familiar with. And, you know, my formative years of the eighties and nineties that my sort of early political awareness in those times. So they don't bear any resemblance to them at all. Like the party of personal responsibility. I don't know where they where that is, but that's long, long ago left their ideology.
Mila Atmos: [00:32:03] Yeah, I think the Republican Party has just become a different animal today, or at least the one that is out in public. So your journey, your husband's decision to speak out, your decision to use your voice, so much of that stemmed from Ukraine in the first impeachment trial of the disgraced ex president Donald Trump. Ukraine and its defense were almost sidelined. Like you didn't talk about that very much. You know, they felt like afterthoughts at that time when Russia invaded Ukraine in February of 2022, it came as a shock to many and the American public was basically blindsided. Were you shocked?
Rachel Vindman: [00:32:44] I was not shocked, but I think that's because I live with retired Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, and he had been talking about this buildup for quite some time and starting to get concerned even last summer and talking about it and the joke that's not really a joke, we went to the first time leaving the country,
you know, in many years. We went to London in early November. And on the way there he wrote a 6,000 word missive about this buildup and talked to some people while we were there about it. So I joked that he had this paper and eventually some version of it I think was published in either December or January in Foreign Affairs or something, a pared down version, thankfully. So I joke that we took it on vacation with us. This paper lived through the holidays with us, spent Thanksgiving, Hanukkah, Christmas, New Year's like it was very much a part of our lives. So he was talking about it and thinking about it a lot. So I guess I didn't have an opportunity to be surprised and everyone wanted him to hedge and he was like, "I'm not hedging. They're going to do this. They are going to invade." And many, many scholars, many people that he really admires were telling him, "Sorry, Alex, look, you're not in government anymore. You can't really do this. Like people are listening to you and you're scaring people." But he wouldn't back down. So it wasn't, it wasn't surprising, but it was disappointing. And I think I wrote about it for a piece that I wrote in USA Today about a friend of mine that I met in Moscow, and she lives in in Kiev. And I had been begging her to leave, to try to leave. And Alex had been trying. He would translate what I would write to her. He would translate it and "please leave." And, you know, even the Ukrainians, it was genuine disbelief. They really did not believe that Putin was going to invade. You know, she was like, "how can he start a war in the heart of Europe, the biggest war?" And Alex just kept saying, "I hope I'm wrong, but what if I'm not and no one is ready?" And unfortunately, I think he's been pretty frustrated because it's me frustrated on his behalf, as he's always been a couple of months ahead of everyone else and kind of what they're thinking, like, you know, when it started, like, we've got to give them more now. The sooner that they end the war, the sooner we can get back to normal. And sorry if I could divert this a little bit. When it comes to the issues, the domestic issues we were talking about, one of the fastest ways we can deal with some of these domestic issues is to help Ukraine defeat Russia, because that that actually will help politically, domestically in the United States and around the world. That will help because it will ease the burden of some of these issues, particularly of inflation and high oil prices and fuel prices that people are feeling. So I know there are some consternation, as there always is in the administration, about what to do and a lot of discussions. But every day that those go on, you know, where many people are dying in Ukraine, both Russians and Ukrainians, soldiers and regular Ukrainian citizens, but also it just prolongs the pain for everyone else. I mean, it's hard to think that like paying a little bit more at the gas pump is not the same as losing your
life or losing your home. But it still is a relatable personal pain and something that I think we definitely need to take a hard look at.
Mila Atmos: [00:36:13] Yeah, for sure. Well, we had Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch on the show a few weeks ago.
Rachel Vindman: [00:36:19] Yes.
Mila Atmos: [00:36:19] And she was concerned that we keep the pressure up, you know, and keep attention on Ukraine. But it feels like once again now we are, you know, at the beginning of summer and our limited attention spans are waning. I think you just kind of went there. But is there a case for ordinary people in the U.S. to keep paying attention to this conflict? How do you, how do you think we should be doing that? Because, you know, you just, you just explained the importance.
Rachel Vindman: [00:36:49] Well, I think the way to pay attention to it is to continue to see what's going on. There was a great story recently about the head rabbi of Moscow who had to leave because he was being pressured to be party to to support the war in Ukraine. And he wouldn't do it. And he left. We need to celebrate these stories. We need to talk about these stories. And I think if the media would talk about it, there is an appetite there. I mean, they're just trying to cover so many things at once and there's only so much time, although they do have 24 hours a day. So I think they could find some time to talk about it. I though I suspect they will probably go back around the summer. There will be people who are once again reporting from Ukraine, from border areas, the border countries about the humanitarian and refugee crisis. And there's still a lot of work being done. But I think we need to plug in. We need to keep talking about it. And I always encourage people like, "hey, call your elected officials. Let them know this is still important to you." I mean, you can call every day and tell them, like the stuff that's important to you and they pay attention to it and it matters to them. They will pay attention to the things that their constituents tell them are important to them. They totally understand that game. So it's still a meaningful way. You can spend 5 minutes calling all your elected officials. It's really a quick thing. There's certainly a case not only for staying involved, but for continuing to advocate. I think just making sure that our elected officials do know what's important so that it's a priority for them to continue to work on it. And to me, it should be a priority. It should be probably pretty easy for anyone running
for office and for those who want to support their party to kind of ease a little bit of the economic tension, but also to just kind of get this off the plate. And I do think it's going to happen in a natural way just because of Russia's running out of money. The price of oil is high, but they're having trouble getting money. And the sanctions are a much slower acting vehicle, but they are taking effect. But we still have to keep pushing to get Ukraine the weapons they need to defend themselves. This is the thing that keeps coming up, doesn't it? I mean, in my life since 2019. Yeah, it has Ukraine having the yeah I know it's like this it just won't go away. The theme of Ukraine needing weapons to defend themselves against Russian aggression. Yeah, I'd like to move on to something else.
Mila Atmos: [00:39:09] Yeah, all of us. All of us do. Except we don't. You know, we don't think about it in the way that you do, of course. But, you know, I think you did that so well. And connecting the dots that when Ukraine can win this war, then a lot of the global pressures will ease, whether that's inflation, you know, on food prices, but also on oil prices. So this really has been such an incredible conversation because you're so good at making the political, personal. And on the show, we are all about turning big ideas into tangible, practical action items. So what are two things you would ask our listeners to do, suburban women or not?
Rachel Vindman: [00:39:50] You need to call your elected officials or otherwise make your priorities known to them. What is important to you? What you want to see them act on? The summer is going to see some important legislation that they're going to have before the recess is over the summer. So it's important that we let them know what's important to that. And then I think the other thing is you got to get out there and have those hard conversations and you got to talk about the topics and nothing needs to be off the table. And if that means you need a glass of wine to loosen up a little bit before you talk about it, so be it. But be that person that your friends can come to and you can maybe demystify things that they've seen on Facebook or whatever their algorithm, their social media algorithms are showing them, and that you can talk about it in a calm way and not get upset and not accuse them of anything, but just maybe give them some food for thought. That's something that they might not be seeing in their normal. As I like to say, siloed news sources. So those are from the very top to our every day. And then, you know, we all live our lives somewhere in between. But it's important that we do that because our friends aren't the ones that are making policy, but they need to understand
the policy and the policymakers need to understand what's important for us, because that's what they're elected to do.
Mila Atmos: [00:41:27] Right. All good advice. I love the idea of really speaking to your friends about everything openly and be a resource to your network to go if they have a question to demystify what's happening. So last question. Looking into the future, what makes you hopeful?
Rachel Vindman: [00:41:46] My daughter makes me hopeful. I see the way she looks at the world, which is so much. It's shaped, of course, by where I am now and my journey. And my husband is in his journey. But it's so much further than we were. All, so much of the junk that we had to deal with, the prejudices that were taught to us by by loving people, but they were shaped by their experiences, our parents and grandparents. So. She's so much beyond that. And I think she can see people for who they are. And that's a huge part of any work that anyone does. We have to see everyone as equal and human and having that intrinsic value and that kind of empathy for everyone's experience. So I'm hopeful that even at 11 that she already has that and she can do much, much bigger things with her future without having to sort out a lot of other stuff first. But I'd like for her and her generation to be able to work on issues without having to sort of adjudicate the role of democracy or whether or not we need democracy or rights. So that's my job to do for her. That's my fight to fight for her because I am so hopeful of the great things that she and her generation can do if we give them that opportunity to do that without having to fight for the same things that we fought for.
Mila Atmos: [00:43:22] Hear, hear. I'm I'm all on board. We're in this together so that our children can achieve even bigger and better things for our democracy.
Rachel Vindman: [00:43:30] Yes, indeed.
Mila Atmos: [00:43:31] Thank you very much for joining us on Future Hindsight. Rachel Vindman: [00:43:34] Thank you for having me. This was such an honor.
Mila Atmos: [00:43:37] Rachel Vindman is a co host of the Suburban Women Problem Podcast. Next week on Future Hindsight, we'll be joined by Matt Kahn about the future of our cities and the future of work. His latest book is Going Remote: How the Flexible Work Economy Can Improve Our Lives and Our Cities. I can't say I agree with all his predictions, but it was truly fascinating.
Matthew E. Kahn: [00:44:04] If the work from home workers start to spread out because of family responsibilities or passions for amenities, this will create new opportunities for face to face workers to go along with them, sort of like moons around a planet. It's sort of a gravitational pull.
Mila Atmos: [00:44:21] That's next time on Future Hindsight. This episode was produced by Zack Travis and Sarah Burningham. Until next time, stay engaged.
The Democracy Group: [00:44:37] This podcast is part of the Democracy Group.