Patriotism vs. Extremism: Ken Harbaugh
February 15th, 2024
“The richest kind of patriotism is that which seeks to make the country better.”
Ken Harbaugh is the host of the Burn the Boats podcast, a former United States Navy pilot, and executive producer of Against All Enemies, a documentary film that explores the critical role of military veterans in domestic violent extremist groups.
We discuss why veterans are equally sought out to work in Fortune 500 companies and to be in leadership positions of extremist groups. Most veterans make a successful transition to civilian life, but a small minority become radicalized. Anger and resentment is a common through line for them. Fueled by the big lie about the 2020 election, extremists continue to become more popular. In fact, the big lie has torn our country apart. Ken stresses that “fundamentally, our elections are secure and the will of the people will be honored in November of 2024, as it was in November of 2020.”
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Credits:
Host: Mila Atmos
Guest: Ken Harbaugh
Executive Producer: Mila Atmos
Producer: Zack Travis
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KEN HARBAUGH Transcript
Mila Atmos: [00:00:04] Welcome to Future Hindsight, a podcast that takes big ideas about civic life and democracy and turns them into action items for you and me. I'm Mila Atmos.
It's 2024 and the future of America is in your hands. Democracy is not a spectator sport, so we are here to bring you an independent perspective about the election this year and empower you to change the status quo.
We've had a few conversations about far right extremism in the United States, the mainstreaming of their ideology and the threat it poses to the very existence of the US and democracy overall. Today, we're having a conversation with a veteran who's done a deep dive on the veterans who have radicalized and become the backbone of violent extremist groups like the Proud Boys, Three Percenters and the Oath Keepers.
Our guest is Ken Harbaugh. He's a former US Navy pilot, the executive producer of the documentary Against All Enemies and host of the Burn the Boats podcast.
Welcome, Ken, and thank you for joining us.
Ken Harbaugh: [00:01:18] Thanks, Mila. Thank you for having me.
Mila Atmos: [00:01:21] We are interested in your civic engagement journey. We are so big on civic engagement and getting involved. You have led a life of service for a very long time now, notably as a pilot and combat recon commander in the Navy. But since then, as an advocate for veterans and even running for Congress in 2018. You have such a rich lived experience and your civic engagement continues to deepen. What prompted you to stay in and become more and more engaged?
Ken Harbaugh: [00:01:52] Well, it was kind of accidental. I didn't anticipate this path. After leaving the Navy, I had every intention of leaving the the veterans life and the military life kind of to the side. And I got into law school and my wife and I were were starting a family, but it was the height of the so-called global war on terror. And something happens when you leave the military, especially in the middle of a conflict
like that. You think about all those who are still carrying the burden. And that weighed very heavily on me. And I remember one moment in particular at a coffee house, literally across the corner from Yale Law School, where I was a first year, and a couple of Army trucks rumbled past, probably from the Armory north of New Haven. And a kid next to me sipping on his latte joked, "what? Is there a war on?" And this was, this was 2005. There were two wars on, and something in me snapped. And completely, unreasonably, unfairly, I stood up. I knocked my drink over, and I was going to let this kid have a piece of my mind. And I realized it's not his fault at all. Like we are a society completely disconnected from the burdens being carried by those fighting in our name, and I resolved to do something about it. And that kind of began my journey of veterans advocacy and leading several veterans nonprofits.
Mila Atmos: [00:03:25] Wow. Well, the work that you do is really important for veterans. And as I mentioned, you are the executive producer of this new documentary, Against All Enemies, which I was fortunate to see a little preview. And I really want to talk about some of the disconnects that are happening there and the way that many veterans feel disconnected from society overall when they return from service. But before we get there, I want to kind of set the stage because you started this podcast. You argue that America is at a crossroads, and I agree, of course. How do you think about it? What is this crossroads and what are the stakes in your mind in this condition that we're in, and what is the price of failure?
Ken Harbaugh: [00:04:10] Well, I mean, we're at a crossroads in a number of ways. It's tough to think about all of the crises we face. I am focused in the immediate term on the 2024 presidential election, because I think it is a a critical election. I don't think I'm overstating it to say that the future of our democracy is at stake. We have one candidate who has said he would terminate the Constitution if he could. He has called insurrectionists, martyrs and hostages. And I think regardless of how we may differ with others on on other matters of policy, none of those arguments matter if we don't have another election. So to me, the crossroads really boil down to ensuring the preservation of our democracy and the ability of Americans to vote and choose their leaders, and repudiating this slide towards authoritarianism. I know I'm on a little bit of a soapbox, but I really think looking at the choices we have, one of them is saying openly now that democracy is is a weakness of our country. And and I think we have to speak in a loud voice as a country to repudiate that.
Mila Atmos: [00:05:32] Totally agree. So democracy itself is at stake. I think everybody understands that as a concept, but I think it's very abstract. And so when we're thinking about this presidential race, as you've already said, the disgraced ex-president has already said wants to change the Constitution and become a dictator for a day, or I guess forever, if he can. And he has already also said that he'll reject the results if he doesn't win. And after January 6th, I think we all know what's in store if indeed he doesn't. You produced this documentary, a very powerful documentary, Against All Enemies. And it takes a deep dive inside the violent extremist movement in America with members of the Proud Boys, Three Percenters and never seen before footage of the Oath Keepers. What's the role of these extremist forces within our society today? Because I think of them having really become mainstream and having altered our relationship to each other, Americans to each other and to our civic fabric; and also in the context that they are probably going to be the people who are going to be activated if Trump does not win.
Ken Harbaugh: [00:06:43] Well, that's just it. Their role has shifted dramatically in just the last few years where they were once seen as fringe elements in our society, and you would only wear the Proud Boys t-shirt if you were going to a Proud Boys meeting. We now have a political dynamic where a president of the United States is name checking them from a debate stage. This is an organization, in the case of the Proud Boys, that's designated a terror organization by our closest ally, Canada. And you have a president of the United States now, a former president, telling them to stand by in case he loses the election. So, yes, they are looming not just in the American consciousness for the menace that they pose, but in our political reality because of the force that they can bring to bear. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if in extremis, either a newly elected President Trump or, say, a defeated candidate Trump, activates these groups to sow the kind of chaos that he thrives on.
Mila Atmos: [00:07:54] Yeah, I think that one of the things that is really missing from our everyday conversations in this race is just how dangerous they are. And like you said, you know, Proud Boys t-shirts were were only worn in Proud Boys events. But now you can wear them everywhere. And people do. And like they pack guns to go to the grocery store and crazy things like this. But to return to the veterans, you know, one of the things that you mentioned is, of course, that you have worked so much with
veterans, and the main theme of the documentary is that these groups are organized and led by highly trained, highly motivated veterans. In fact, they actively recruit among veterans. And here we have a group of disciplined fighters. Actually, I have to say, I was struck that in the documentary someone said, "finally we get to fight again." And I'm wondering why people who are retired from the military are so susceptible to propaganda about fighting against the very state that they used to serve. What do these extremist groups promise them? What's what's the catch?
Ken Harbaugh: [00:09:03] Well, I think it has to be said, and I'll try to repeat this point again and again, that we are talking about a minority of veterans, a small minority of veterans. The vast majority, even combat veterans, come home and reintegrate successfully into civilian life. And across many metrics, they do better than their civilian counterparts. But there is a subset that is, as you said, vulnerable to this kind of propaganda and recruitment and manipulation. And the fundamental reason is that they are looking for that sense of community and camaraderie, which is so powerful when you wear the uniform. But our military, our Department of Defense, doesn't do a great job at transitioning people out of that military life and into civilian life. They do a better job than they used to. But as a case in point, I had a three day transition period. After nine years in the Navy, multiple deployments, I had three days sitting in a classroom with a bunch of other people who had very different backgrounds in the military that was supposed to equip me for everything I needed for civilian life. Granted, I had it pretty easy. I had a supportive family. I had a career path in front of me that I didn't end up taking. I didn't become a lawyer. But think about that 20-something year old who was just thrown into the proverbial wilderness of civilian life after the very regimented life of the military, after the camaraderie that is just so definitive of their experience that that sense of purpose and many of them look for something to replace that, most of them find it in positive ways through groups like Team Rubicon, which retrains military vets to do disaster relief or through faith communities. But some percentage find it in groups like the Oath Keepers or the Three Percenters, and there they can do incredible damage.
Mila Atmos: [00:11:10] Yeah, community is really a powerful thing, and I can imagine a brotherhood of people with whom you've served in combat with especially must be extra strong. There is no doubt that the people you interviewed in the documentary have all experienced trauma. I mean, it felt to me that they really felt slightly lost. I wonder if you
can tell me more about the radicalization process. Obviously, like you said, this is a small percentage. It's a, it's a minority of the veterans. But what are the messages that they latch on to that get them fired up and willing to be violent? And I'm also thinking here specifically about the fact that Trump himself has called Americans who have died in service of our country losers and suckers. So is the messaging simply that they think it's a battle between good and evil? Or is there something specific, like a keyword that you can think of that tips people over?
Ken Harbaugh: [00:12:06] I don't know that there's a keyword, and I hope we'll come back to former President Trump's complete lack of respect for the military. But I want to address your question about what radicalizes these vets. And there are different pathways. Everyone is their own person. They have their own way into movements like this. But I think the example we highlight in the film, because it's so instructive and he's such a compelling character, is Chris Goldsmith, who's become a good friend. And I think his case is instructive because his path began from a place of deep anger and resentment and the sense that he was sent by his country to fight. Fight a war that turned out to be based on false premises. He lost good friends there. He lost a piece of himself there. I mean, in Chris's case, he was completely unequipped for what they were asking him to do and in Iraq. And I'll sanitize this somewhat for this interview. But his job was to document torture victims and mass graves. And every time he took a photo of one of these faces of a tortured Iraqi, that snapshot on the screen of his camera was frozen in his mind. And he still sees those snapshots in his sleep. And upon coming back, he resolved that he was not going to go back to Iraq. And the day before his follow on deployment, he tried to take his own life in a military cemetery, surrounded by his buddies, those who didn't come home alive. And instead of regaining consciousness, surrounded by caregivers or a therapist, he woke up handcuffed to a gurney in a military hospital under arrest. If that's not enough to make someone embittered and angry and looking for an outlet for that rage, I don't know what is. And in Chris's case, he's an Army vet with real training and incredible motivation, and he very easily could have directed it and almost did towards the kind of extremism we're trying to expose in the film. Thank goodness Chris was able to find another path eventually, with the intervention of fellow veterans who cared about him deeply. And he's now doing incredible work exposing extremist networks. But anger and resentment is such a through line in many of these stories of radicalized veterans.
Mila Atmos: [00:14:45] Yeah, that's an amazing story. Well, I feel like this is a good time to ask you. Where can people see this documentary? I know it's about to come out. Tell us where they can see it and what date it comes out.
Ken Harbaugh: [00:14:59] Yeah, it'll be available everywhere streaming on March 29th in the US. If you live in Europe, you can see it already. It's being broadcast across public TV around Europe. And you know, that's an incredible story in and of itself. We never anticipated an international audience for this film, but it turns out that the rest of the world, especially our allies, are deeply, deeply concerned about what is happening in America right now. We often forget in our cocoon sometimes that the world does look to us still as a beacon of democracy. And the failure of American democracy would have reverberations around the world. And our friends overseas care deeply about that prospect.
Mila Atmos: [00:15:48] Yes. Well, in the context of ongoing conflicts around the world, in Gaza and in Ukraine, of course, also Sudan, Congo, there's conflict everywhere. And, you know, one of the things that you mentioned is that as a society, we are disconnected from the people who actually serve. Now, of course, we don't have boots on the ground in any of these areas right now, but we are striking boats in Yemen and other targets there.
Ken Harbaugh: [00:16:18] We do need to remind ourselves that we do have boots on the ground all over the world. We had three Americans die in Jordan. And I think the reason we forget that is their service is so quiet and professional, and the vast majority of their time, they're not looking for clout on Instagram. They're not broadcasting their service to the world like so many others feel compelled to do. It's a quiet professionalism that defines our military, and we have people everywhere because it remains a dangerous world, and the death of those three service members in Jordan is proof of that. So I would I would take issue with the the idea that we don't have boots on the ground. We're being careful not to come into direct confrontation with Russia, for example. But we have people risking their lives every day all around the world.
Mila Atmos: [00:17:15] Yes, yes. Thank you for that correction. It's true. We do have boots on the ground because we have bases everywhere and we have people stationed
everywhere. And they do engage if they need to and do die. But what I mean is that we're not in active combat officially.
We're taking a short break to hear about a show called Kennedy Dynasty from Evergreen Podcasts, and we'll be back with Ken in a moment.
Allison Holland: [00:17:44] I'm Allison Holland, host of the Kennedy Dynasty podcast. Equipped with a microphone and a long time fascination of the Kennedy family, I am joined by an incredible cast of experts, friends and guests to take you on a fun, relaxed, yet informative journey through history and pop culture. From book references to fashion to philanthropy to our modern expectations of the presidency itself. You'll see that there is so much more to Kennedy than just JFK or conspiracy theories. Join me for the Kennedy Dynasty podcast.
Mila Atmos: [00:18:15] And now let's return to my conversation with Ken Harbaugh.
So speaking of the professionalism of service members, one of the things that was mentioned in the documentary and I was like, yeah, that's exactly right, was that veteran status gives cover and legitimacy to extremist messaging because people respect the military so much. If there's a veteran who says something really crazy and extreme, it makes it easier to be taken up by the general population and be believed and followed. And I'm thinking here of rallies with people like Michael Flynn. How does this movement become more popular widely across the population in your mind?
Ken Harbaugh: [00:18:57] Well, in the military, there's this term, force multiplier. And when you look at an organization like the Oath Keepers or the Proud Boys or the Three Percenters, there is a reason why they try so hard to bring veterans into their ranks. Even for those chapters that don't have a majority of their membership is as veterans. Veterans often are the core of those organizations. And it's because they serve as force multipliers. They don't just bring the experience or the training they may have gained in the military. They bring a certain cachet. Veterans are still one of the only groups in America that enjoys broad public support. I mean, that has declined for many other groups and institutions across American society. Veterans and those who serve have still maintained that broad public support, and these groups use that. They use the cachet of veterans to bolster their message, to bring others in. And it's the same reason,
you know, actually, Chris Goldsmith pointed this out when a a recent study by the Rand Corporation came out, that the same reason that fortune 500 companies and leading nonprofits recruit veterans is the same reason that these extremist groups do. Because when they focus on a goal, they are much more likely to achieve it than others. They have that leadership ability. They have that ability to work in teams, and they have the respect of the American people. And that used the wrong way can be a very dangerous thing.
Mila Atmos: [00:20:38] Mhm. Yeah. Well, speaking of dangerous, one thing also that a lot of people don't realize is that there are ongoing skirmishes in many locations in the United States on weekends. We had Jeff Sharlet on who wrote this beautiful book, The Undertow, and he went across the country and saw so many of these. And there's an idea that January 6th is a one-off, or that maybe 2020 is just the time that is behind us, but actually it continues. So why is it so harmful to look at these clashes as a one time thing, instead of a sign of what's possibly to come?
Ken Harbaugh: [00:21:18] Well, I think if you listen to the January 6th apologists, it's clear that it wasn't a one-off. I mean, those who are in jail are being celebrated now as martyrs and hostages by the same political leaders who condemned them the day afterwards. The scariest thing for me, in addition to the the reality that January 6th, if anything, was just a dress rehearsal for the next one, is that I think the most cynical enablers of the insurrection, the Josh Hawleys the Elise Stefaniks, right, the Ted Cruzes have come to realize, along with their foot soldiers in these movements, that maybe you don't actually need to break windows and storm a building in order to thwart the will of the people in order to upend a democratic election. If you can take over an entire party. Well, then you get the building that way. And that in some ways is even scarier because it's insidious.
Mila Atmos: [00:22:26] Yes. Violence not required. The takeover continues. Well, it's well underway. Of course, the Republican Party is hostage to Trump and the MAGA base, and they're not going to change their stripes anytime soon. Maybe if he loses it might it might finally happen. But speaking of extremism in our midst, how do you think we can end the appeal to the general population and avoid future violence? And I know you just said the party can just do it, but we actually need to change hearts and minds. We need to find a way to get people to reject this ideology.
Ken Harbaugh: [00:23:03] Well, I have to constantly remind myself that I live in my own kind of information bubble bubbles. Probably not the right word, but it's an information ecosystem in which I swim in politics. I hear about just about every utterance from the former president that suggests of this slide towards authoritarianism. I know that he's talking about being dictator for a day, and I also know that no one is dictator for just a day. I know he's talked about terminating the Constitution if he could. I know the ins and outs of the classified documents case and just how much it it risked our national security. Most Americans don't, though, and I think we forget that sometimes in this ecosystem, you know, you've got a podcast that delves deeply into politics. I do too. Most people don't have a podcast that delves deeply into politics. They have real jobs, right? They have families to take care of, and they're not paying attention every day to how dangerous it would be to elect Donald Trump for a second time. But between now and November of 2024, we have the opportunity to educate them. I still believe in this country as much as I did the the day I raised my right hand the first time and swore an oath to the Constitution. And I believe that Americans, if equipped with the facts, if they know the truth about Donald Trump and the threat he poses, will reject him outright. I think we can get there. We have a little more than half a year to do it, and I think his defeat in November of 2024 will be resounding. But it has to be resounding. If it's close at all, we're going to see a repeat of January 6th and it's going to be terrible.
Mila Atmos: [00:24:57] Yeah, we definitely don't want that. You sound confident that there will be a resounding defeat of Donald Trump. And I wonder even, and I know like this is just conjecture because of course we don't know what the future will bring. But, you know, if you believe Chris Christie, he will be convicted in March. And do you think that will actually stop his candidacy?
Ken Harbaugh: [00:25:21] No, no, not at all. Not at all. Because his candidacy is not driven by the will of the American people. It's driven by a faction within the Republican Party, a dominant faction. I think the Republican Party has to reform itself. It's not going to recover from this if Trump is still part of it. But these indictments, even a conviction. We have seen again and again, it is just fodder for the conspiracy theories that propel Trump's candidacy. So within that dynamic, the Republican Party primary dynamic, I don't think it hurts him at all. Actually, I just have to look at the track record. Every
indictment that's come down has actually boosted his popularity with likely Republican primary voters.
Mila Atmos: [00:26:13] Um, well, you know, you were saying that people, if they understood the truth, they would change their minds. But we are actually living very much in a post-truth moment. And honestly, the fact that Trump is the front runner right now, he has not yet clinched the nomination in this moment, it feels like we're actually living in the Twilight Zone. So technology has amplified the voices and influence of these movements the extremism, the ideology. How has the information landscape shaped their success, and how should we be talking about domestic extremism with our friends and our family and the people that we know who are attracted to this? So when it comes to January 6th, for example, some people say we should call it a criminal conspiracy and an attack on our country. Some say we shouldn't call it an insurrection or an attempted coup. What's your view?
Ken Harbaugh: [00:27:05] Well, I think you call it what it is. It was an attempt to block the peaceful transfer of power. It was an attempt to subvert a democratic election, to overturn the results, using violence that seems to be as as close to defining an insurrection as you can get. It was disorganized. It was chaotic. It was clownish in a lot of ways, but no less menacing. And but for the the incredible courage of a handful of law enforcement officers and representatives who stood up to the mob and carried out their duty later that evening, we would not have had that transfer of power. So it was an insurrection. It was also a criminal conspiracy. It was also a coup. I suppose in some cases it depends on the audience. But we have to tell the truth about it no matter what.
Mila Atmos: [00:28:04] Well, given all the things that you've done now, how have your views on American civic life evolved?
Ken Harbaugh: [00:28:13] Oh, that's a great question. Maybe I'll share how my views on patriotism have evolved because I think it's very closely related. I mean, I joined the military straight out of college as, well it was a... very patriotic gesture and looking back, I realized that my patriotism was born of privilege. I joined the military because I wanted to give back, because I wanted to serve a country that I felt indebted to. But I have served with so many people since then, both in the military and out of the military, who have a much richer and more nuanced sense of patriotism, a much deeper love of
country as a result. And maybe I'll highlight one of the the protagonists in the film, Mike Washington, who lost his son in Afghanistan. Mike himself was a career marine rose to the highest enlisted rank in the Marine Corps. And when we talk about patriotism, it's just so obvious to me that the best kind of patriotism, the richest kind of patriotism, is that which seeks to make the country better. It's not a patriotism born of gratitude or thinking that America is is so great. It's done so much for me. It's the kind of patriotism that says there is so much work left to do. There are so many unfulfilled promises, and I'm going to fight for this country to realize those promises for others, for my family, in some cases for me. But it's that patriotism of moving the country forward, and that has fundamentally changed the way I think about service to the country.
Mila Atmos: [00:30:01] Mm. That's beautiful. So tell me if you could have a megaphone and speak to every American, what is it that you want them to know in this moment about the election in '24?
Ken Harbaugh: [00:30:17] That would be a great megaphone to have. I would keep things very simple and I would say that our elections are secure. And that anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to manipulate you and scare you and lie to you. I think the big lie about the election results, which is the fuel that keeps Trump's candidacy and the rage of his most ardent followers going, that has done more damage to our country than any political lie, maybe in in our history. I'd have to think hard about that. But certainly in the modern era, the lie about the election has torn our country apart. Has torn families apart in ways that I can't think of, certainly in my lifetime. And I think the critical message I would convey is to expose that lie and say that fundamentally, our elections are secure and the will of the people will be honored in November of 2024, as it was in November of 2020.
Mila Atmos: [00:31:30] That's a good message. I had the odd fortune of sitting next to a QAnon member at a wedding last year, and he told me that he would never vote again, and I, I looked at him and I thought, "okay, that's wild, that that's the thing that he wanted to tell me." You know, he said, "I voted for Trump twice, but now I just don't believe it anymore. And elections are rigged and there's no point in voting. And, you know, those people control it anyway." So what are two things an everyday person can do to reject extremism from our public sphere?
Ken Harbaugh: [00:32:09] Well between now and 2024. Tune in. Of course, be mindful of your your sources of information, because there is so much disinformation out there. And listen to people who are living real experiences. Let me just take a case in point with all of these draconian anti-trans bills that are making their way through legislatures. It is strange to me that the most outspoken and virulent opponents of trans rights are, in most cases, people who have never met a trans person or have a trans person in their family or in their close circle of loved ones. And I think if you just took a moment to have a conversation with a trans person and, you know, we could map this idea onto the history of bigotry and how it works its way through our culture. There's this saying Brene Brown has that it's hard to hate up close. And I think if if we just talk to the people we're supposed to be afraid of, we would see their humanity. We would reject the hate that is coursing through our political system. And I think that would do a lot to undermine the provocateurs, the ones who want us to hate.
Mila Atmos: [00:33:37] Very good advice. Thank you. So as we are rounding out our conversation here today, looking into the future, what makes you hopeful?
Ken Harbaugh: [00:33:47] Young people make me hopeful. And I know that's probably somewhat cliched, but as a father of three, it gives me incredible hope to see that my kids and their friends reject outright the ideas that are being elevated and promoted by the people that I'm talking about, the Donald Trumps of the world. The challenge for us as a, as a country is lasting long enough to hand them the reins. I mean, it is happening. It is striking to me how terrified the Republican Party is of Taylor Swift. And I think that is a great thing. The fact that young people are taking the reins, even when they're not being handed over, I think is an almost unambiguous good for the country.
Mila Atmos: [00:34:37] Yes. Hear, hear. Well, Ken, thank you very much for being on the podcast. It was really a pleasure to have you on the show.
Ken Harbaugh: [00:34:45] Thank you so much for having me.
Mila Atmos: [00:34:48] Ken Harbaugh is a veteran, the executive producer of the Against All Enemies documentary, out on March 29th, and the host of the Burn the Boats podcast.
Next week on Future Hindsight, we're joined by Jess Piper. She's the executive director of Blue Missouri, the host of the Dirt Road Democrats podcast, and ran for district one in the Missouri House of Representatives in 2022.
Jess Piper: [00:35:17] People always say that Missouri is a red state, and I say Missouri is an uncontested state. We pass progressive ballot measures. We have recreational marijuana, right. People are excited about progressive ballot measures. So I have other folks say, then why do they vote for Republicans? Well, friends, they didn't have anyone to vote for. 40% of our seats went uncontested this year. When I go to the ballot, there's going to be no one for me to vote for. So you can't turn that around and say, "well, this is your problem because you vote poorly."
Mila Atmos: [00:35:47] That's next time on Future hindsight.
And before I go, first of all, thanks so much for listening. If you like this episode, you'll love what we have in store. Be sure to hit that follow button on Apple Podcasts or the subscribe button on your favorite podcast app, so you'll catch all of our upcoming episodes. Thank you!
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This episode was produced by Zack Travis and me. Until next time, stay engaged. The Democracy Group: [00:36:36] This podcast is part of the democracy Group.